I don’t know why Germany is determined in their denial. Yesterday it was clear that the chancellor, on the one hand, defended this decision by claiming that it was right and inevitable, and, on the other hand, she said in her final speech that “if we had made mistakes, we have learned to draw conclusions from them’. So there is some kind of internal discrepancy in German politics

— said Prof. Ryszard Legutko, Law and Justice MEP, in an interview with the portal w Polityce.pl.

wPolityce.pl: Is the issue of migration balanced on a knife-edge in the EU? Juncker has said that even if 1 or 2 countries do not join the UN pact, it will weaken the position of the EU. However, we know that more and more countries do not intend to sign it in Marrakech, including Bulgaria.

Prof. Ryszard Legutko: Yes, there will be even more deviations from the pact. The same argument is raised again and again, that “we here must go together and support each other’. But all this is done after the fact, which is hypocrisy. We had not been consulted beforehand on migration issues, the opening of borders, and so on. At that time, nobody perceived it as weakening of European unity, when a unilateral decision to open borders was introduced, or an attempt was made to impose a stupid system of forced relocation.

Can one speak, in this case, of deliberate manipulation? The content of the agreement on migration contains a de facto attempt to transform illegal migration into legal migration. Why are Germans determined in their denial, claiming that this is not the case?

I do not know why they are in denial. Now it was clear that the chancellor, on the one hand, defended this decision by claiming that it was right and inevitable, and, on the other hand, she said in her final speech that “if we had made mistakes, we have learned to draw conclusions from them’. So there is some kind of internal discrepancy in German politics, because admitting that this was a catastrophic mistake disqualifies Germany as a leading country, which has the ability to take independent decisions on behalf of the European Community.

Several days ago Merkel appealed for unity, solidarity in relation to, inter alia, migration. Nevertheless, you have accurately indicated in the EP that the German Government’s own interests prevail here. Does Merkel place them above the interests of the community?

Yes, it has always been so. In her reply, the chancellor also referred to the issue of Nord Stream2, saying “after all, we also have our own interests, we are resigning from coal; we have to look after it”. But the truth is that, in fact, German interests will always be secure in the EU. However, the weaker the country and the more located to the east, the more contradictory and threatened by the community policy its interests are. We are often told: „But this is community policy, you have to adapt. This is what it is about, if we are together; everyone must make some concessions’. But nobody says that to these big players; they don’t have to adapt to, for example, the fact that the Polish energy sector or the Polish economy in general, is based on coal and will remain so for a long time to come. And imposing absurd restrictions is harmful to Poland.

Isn’t it a twisted logic? On the one hand, in explaining the alleged importance of Nord Stream 2, Merkel says that they will need more gas during the transition period when resigning from coal. On the other hand, we are observing her and Macron meet Putin and Erdogan, probably doing their own businesses.

Of course. Germany is a country that is too large and important and has a very high self-esteem not to succumb to the temptation to pursue a policy that is not only independent, but also goes beyond the constraints of the EU. It is not a global power, but a country that is a little tight in the EU. Germany is therefore using the EU to pursue its own goals. Juncker is not a serious partner for Putin, Erdogan, Trump or the British Prime Minister. The German chancellor is such a partner, and Germany is aware of the fact that its role goes far beyond their unique role in the EU.

What kind of Union does Merkel really want? You have shown that her vision has nothing to do with a Christian-democratic vision, and that the Left is growing in EU structures.

It is not a vision, because she has only mentioned migration and a common army, which is also an issue that will certainly cause a great deal of confusion. It will never be the case that there will be a European army, which will really be an important force. The notion of the European army is similar to the one regarding euro. Its meaning has never been economic or financial at all, but political. Nothing concrete was said in Merkel’s general declarations. I must admit that I was disappointed, because she actually gave a vague speech about tolerance and solidarity. I do not understand what tolerance means in international relations. There is a terrible, completely unjustified attack on Poland, including violation of the principles of the Treaties. We witness various excesses of the European Parliament, attempting to create a mechanism that is completely non-treaty, designed to chase and harass rebellious states. The word tolerance does not fit here at all. In addition, of course, the EU is very much to the left and the CDU has apparently accepted this. The chancellor is a very efficient politician when it comes to the mechanisms of power, but she is not a politician who would bring a certain new quality, resulting from the European tradition, Christian democracy, which initiated this process of European integration.

Prof. Ryszard Legutko was interviewed by Piotr Czartoryski-Sziler

Tłum. KJ