OUR INTERVIEW. Professor Pawłowicz: I told EU delegates in the National Counter of the Judiciary in Poland that Poles are a proud nation and they must respect us

When they started gathering, I said aloud twice in English: Remember, Poles are a proud nation and you must respect us. Such visits are a provocation

— prof. Krystyna Pawłowicz, Member of National Couter of the Judiciary, said about the meeting with the EU delegates to the portal wPolityce.pl.

wPolityce.pl: What did you say to the members of the Committee on Civil Liberties, Justice and Home Affairs of the European Parliament (LIBE) which caused their rather prompt walkout from the National Couter of the Judiciary?

Professor Krystyna Pawłowicz: There was a very large delegation with their translators. We were not ready for so many people participating in the session of the National Counter of the Judiciary, so we had to organize some extra chairs for them. We accepted them at the request of Prime Minister Morawiecki. They looked at us as if we were savage. They were welcomed by the Chairman of the Counter, judge Leszek Mazur. He informed them that we were carrying out reforms of the judicial system and briefly explained the main concepts. Afterwards he gave the floor to our guests. The Chairman of LIBE presented the position of this institution. He said that the judges in Poland were being dismissed and their rights violated. He explained that Irremovability of Judges is one of the principles of judicial procedure prevalent in Europe. He convinced that every state has the right to reform the justice system, but the judges should remain irremovable and cannot be made redundant. He referred to the case of the judge Gersdorf.

Did anybody from the National Counter of the Judiciary reacted to these words?

Yes. The judge Dudzicz, replied to these false statements. He said that the members of the delegation did not have full and reliable information on this subject. The Polish Constitution states clearly that the time of retirement for the judges is determined by law. No judge in Poland has been forced out. Some of the judges under the new laws on the Supreme Court retired keeping the right to all the privileges related to reaching the retirement age of 65. Some judges who were over 65 and wished to stay on could apply to the president for an extension. It could also have been done by the President Gersdorf, but she refused to make such an appeal. When Judge Dudzicz finished, I spoke.

What did you say?

I expressed my highest indignation that once again we are being bothered by the representatives of the EU agenda who come to Poland and harass us. I have emphasized that they had no idea about facts, about Polish law and about what was happening in Poland. They do not understand the Polish Constitution and do not wish to understand it. I asked - do you know that under our Constitution the only body authorized to rule on the compliance with the Constitution is the Polish Constitutional Tribunal? Do you know that courts are subject to the Constitution and statutes? Are you aware that judge Gersdorf is breaking the rules of law interpretation, because she decides on her own whether the laws are in conformity with the Constitution or not and what law she will apply. Mrs. Gersdorf and the judges’ environment has not appealed to the Constitutional Tribunal regarding the Act on the Supreme Court, including the regulations on retirement age of the judges.

Although this Act is in force, they apply it freely and selectively. Some of the regulations which in their opinion seem inconvenient are being considered invalid and therefore usurpationally suspended from being applied, while others, which are beneficial for them, are applied. For example, Mrs. Gersdorf complied with the Act that required the president’s permission to take additional work by a retired judge. Similarly, the judges who wanted to continue work after reaching the age of 65 wrote to the president for his consent on this matter as the law demanded.

I told the delegates of this EU commission that they do not understand the essence of democracy, that they have come to us unprepared and have no basic knowledge of the issues they are talking about. There was a person who wanted to ask a question, but the chairman of LIBE said that they actually had to go because they had an important meeting with the media. The chairman of the National Counter of the Judiciary thanked them for their visit.

Did the meeting last long?

Approximately half an hour. When they started gathering, I said aloud twice in English: Remember, Poles are a proud nation and you must respect us. Such visits are a provocation.

What was their reaction to your words?

They left in silence. The French woman came up to me and said she agreed with me. She added that she respected the Polish approach to immigration. We talked with a representative of Lithuania for a long time, together with Polish MEP Waldemar Tomaszewski.

What did he say?

He said that he’s been defending Poland, but the Polish Ministry of Foreign Affairs runs a disastrous information policy and does not provide any information to the members of LIBE. The members of the commission derive information from the media or from the Polish opposition in the EP. Mr. Tomaszewski appealed to us to intervene in the Ministry of Foreign Affairs so that the EP’s units would have full information from the government about what is going on in Poland and what the reforms look like. Mr. Tomaszewski complained about the suspension of the information. It is likely that the Poland’s representatives at EU bodies, some of our employees attracted to the EU bodies by the current Polish opposition, boycott our efforts and do not provide information on these matters.

Perhaps it is in our best interest that the personnel composition in the Polish representative offices should also be refreshed. An interesting fact was that among the representatives of LIBE at the National Counter of the Judiciary meeting there was also Barbara Spinelli, a daughter of Altiero Spinelli. She spoke very ill about Poland during her earlier visit to the parliament.

A portal wPolityce.pl found out that the representatives of the Constitutional Tribunal would not meet the LIBE delegation today. Is it a good decision?

Very good.